A genuine threat to real democracy in Australia

[mrp]

I will write a book about this:

"Suddenly Secessionist"

The movie will star Brooke Shields.

[gnads]

I didn't respond to it in the Ausssie site because I thought it's a load of bollocks ............

Pres. is just trying to wind me up ..........

then he posts this drivel

Yes it borders on alliance with those fringe and loony tunes who hate economists (I am), free traders (I am) and bankers

and Voila !! I just have to say something

Free Traders ... is that the same free traders who move all their businesses OS or to China for cheap slave labour and inferior products which also are harmfull to our health as well as lasting 5 mins? eg. Latest toy fiasco ... with once supposed to be the best quality toys ... Fischer Price( owned by Mattel) being made in China and containing lead based paint. Clothing from China containing 300 times more than the allowable amount of formaldahyde which can cause skin complaints, headaches, nausea and long term is a carcenogen. Also make up and perfumes containing dangerous chemicals.

All in the name of the mighty dollar and outright greed.

I do not believe this scenario has any creedence ... children should be allowed to be children and some of what Pres. says about the IQ or mindset of some adult voters is questionable enough.

Mind you I don't think we deserve to be called " F#!ks" because we have not responded to this ludicrous concept.

Pres. makes mention of the Fabian Society as if it is something evil but here's a brief history -

Fabian Society
Socialist society founded in 1883 – 84 in London, to establish a democratic socialist state in Britain. The name derived from Fabius Maximus Cunctator, whose elusive tactics in avoiding pitched battles led to victory over stronger forces. Fabians believed in evolutionary socialism rather than revolution, and used public meetings and lectures, research, and publishing to educate the public. Important early members included George Bernard Shaw and Sidney and Beatrice Webb. They helped organize a separate party that became the Labour Party in 1906, and many Labour members of Parliament have been Fabians.

Hardly a group of people out to cause political mayhem in fact they were quite clever .... and it is different and better than the associations of right wing liberal ideologists who plague us with their arrogance and contempt for the working class.

There is nothing wrong with the one vote, one value concept ..... and like everything else eg. driving licenses, drinking in hotels and military service ... there has to be an age requirement.

For a long time it was 21 ..... it still is in some states of the US .... now it's 18. And I fully endorse the rationale that if you are old enough to soldier arms for your country you are old enough to drink, hold a driver's license and VOTE.

We all learn more as we grow older and become more astute in our knowledge of politics and the things that go on around us and we vote accordingly in how we perceive these things and what we believe to fairly represent our expectations in our country.

I would say that in most cases young first time voters will usually vote as their parents do ... that's the climate in which they were raised.

Mindsets change with employment,environment, marital status and maturity.

So keep ya hat on Pres. ........ it was just a wild card thrown into a discussion. IMHO.

[sherri]

This is off the actual topic i guess, but part of what gnads wrote really resonated with me.
On the weekend here, there was an article in the paper about toy manufacturing in China.
The conditions of workers, kept in dormitories, paid badly and docked a day or two's pay if they were so much as a minute late clocking in, exposed to chemicals constantly so that many of them were sick and some died on the job-possibly from overwork etc-were just appalling.
Absolutely appalling and a breach of human rights. It amazes me our govts and the big toy companies etc are happy to receive goods made under such conditions but then again this is China we are talking about.
China-Full of people, and these workers are female at that, so presumably expendable.
And if a company can get their goods really cheap and re sell them over in Aust or US or England, then there is a heap of profit to be made, naturally.
Why put up with paying workers in the western world a decent wage when you can pay chinese women peanuts and they can even drop dead on the job and no one will care.
Then the govt here has the absolute cheek to tell us the world is a level playing field and we should compete.
Big business will get away with whatever it can for profit. Chemicals, medicines, anything banned in eg US, will be shipped to countries where they are not banned, where there are slacker laws.

It absolutely amazes me how lowly human life is treated in a lot of countries, yet we mysteriously have groups like UN telling us countries such as Australia are the biggest breachers of human rights???

[mrp]

You are an imbecile gnads. The dynamic gains from trade outweigh the static gains (by about 90%). The static gains are that prices fall, output increases and real wages increase and so do exports.

The poorest of society benefit the most from free trade.

We had lead paint in baby cots before free trade. We had criminal negligence in industry before free trade. Go throw your shoes at another industry.

If you want to be ruled by sixteen year olds, go ahead. Arse, meet elbow. Do you feel comfortable being arrested by a sixteen year old over a "moral" issue a sixteen year old has no real experience or worthwhile opinion on?

You are not interested in limiting the impact of the Government however, you are interested in unbridled mob rule and oppression of the smallest minority, the individual.

[mrp]

Sherri,

What matters is if they are coerced to work there.

I don't trust the Chinese Government. They are former communists trying to hold onto their dictatorship, and they have been liberalising their economy so it doesn't fall apart like the USSR since the late seventies. They are really parasitic aristocrats who couldn't give a s**t about democracy or free trade and only use the latter to stay in power.

That said a lot of Chinese are better off, despite if we think their wages are low. Coercion or the lack thereof is the issue. Factor prices are lower and so a far lower wage their can buy a similar basket of goods here for a lower price over there.

Paying workers here a decent wage to do assembly type work is quite frankly, stupid. We are too skilled for that and the entire world will suffer a welfare loss.

[mrp]

Another thing about free trade is you are free to buy whatever you like gnads.

Those toys will be much safer, and it has little to do with coercion of manufacturers here. The Chinese need to rebuild their customer base.

Think about how idealistic and conformist kids are. Do you really want them setting social and economic policy?

No negative rights, all posiitive rights and high taxes and plenty of redistribution. There is a reason why Socialist Alliance are so prominent at Univeristies.

Despite your political allegiance, you are a conservative in some ways. You believe in inalienable negative rights and a fair degree of economic freedom (despite wanting to hold a cartel over labour from the darkies). You seem socially conserrvative but commendably have a live and let live attitude here.

You couldn't stand to be ruled by snotty nosed 16 year old prefects and student representatives. You can barely stand talking to me, hate high taxes, the UN and love your guns. What agenda do you think they would run? Would you like to be arrested by a sixteen year old copper? Or would you smack them around like they probably deserve?

If only you gave up your hatred of the wealthy and realised the net gains of open immigration and trade outweight the benefits, you would be a liberated person.

Evan Thornely needs to be committed.

[sherri]

MrP, you asked if the workers in China worked of their own free will.
I can't answer 100% as I am not sure, but what I inferred from the article was that workers (women) came to work in the toy factories as they were keen to work but once they signed on, their freedom as such more or less went and things didn't work out as they expected.
They ended up in dormitories in locked compounds, working very long hours and often covered in sores from the chemicals. They were charged for the rooms, water used and food, with the result many of them went without some meals as it was very expensive. They were afraid to have their names mentioned or quoted in the article (which would probably be the same with workers in Aust) but the crunch was that they technically could leave, but if they left they incurred huge penalties. i can't rememebr the exact amount but it meant they had to pay back several months pay, something like that. So some of them said they could not afford to leave.
To me, that borders on coercion.The chinese govt blames the companies but the companies must be doing it with govt knowledge, surely.
I looked for the article online to show you but although every other thing from last weekend seems to be there, I can't find that particular article and it was a double page spread!

[danet]

I think it’s ridiculous that any Government would want to lower the voting age under 18 yrs. There must be some agenda for this, like some magical statistics that they may get more votes to stay in power ie: single mums and a myriad of kiddies. I know by my own children when they turned 18, with all that was happening in their lives, they didn’t have a clue who/what to vote for, or for what reason. They asked us, the parents who we vote for so they do the same. As they are in their mid 20’s now, and worked, lived and experienced their own real world, they have watched the news, spoken politics and understand more to know who to vote for that would suit their lives, as after all, they are going to be the the ones paying taxes as main body of workers for the country that will support the Government, the underprivileged, the unemployed, and any type of pension etc. So IMO, the vote should not be lowered to under 18 yrs, but not be lowered under 21 yrs! As for the topic of products made in China, here is a link from a recent current affairs programme about the toys, and yet another one, about clothes made in China, that will (virtually) make you sick…..I was shocked to say the least. Actually, I was angry with our Government for not using more stringent measures. Yet, they seem to ban really good things like “essiac” (check Rene Caisse) from Canada coming to help cancer victims here in Oz! Grrrrrr!

http://au.todaytonight.yahoo.com/articl ... s-recalled

http://au.todaytonight.yahoo.com/articl ... de-clothes

[gnads]

You are an imbecile gnads. The dynamic gains from trade outweigh the static gains (by about 90%). The static gains are that prices fall, output increases and real wages increase and so do exports.

The poorest of society benefit the most from free trade.

We had lead paint in baby cots before free trade. We had criminal negligence in industry before free trade. Go throw your shoes at another industry.

If you want to be ruled by sixteen year olds, go ahead. Arse, meet elbow. Do you feel comfortable being arrested by a sixteen year old over a "moral" issue a sixteen year old has no real experience or worthwhile opinion on?

You are not interested in limiting the impact of the Government however, you are interested in unbridled mob rule and oppression of the smallest minority, the individual.

I think I'll leave you to post your shyte unanswered in future Pres. you jumped up d1ckhead.

Did you actually read my post or just kneejerk react to the first sentence you didn't like?

I'll tell you who the..."F#*k...... is around here and the crown is squarely over your head.

Because we had lead based paint on baby cots 35 to 40 years ago ... is that any excuse for the Chinese to be using it now?

Is it any excuse for Australians / Australian companies to be importing it?

You young twerp ... closer than I to being sixteen ...... are an absolute jackass, if anywhere in my reply you can find one bloody line where I agree that children should have or their parents for them .... a vote or a vote value.

What happens in other countries to people directly and indirectly employed by Australian companies who live and d*e on the job is an outrage.

People profiting from that exploitation are morally corrupt greedy scum. Call it what you want "free trade" ha ..... nothing is free everything comes at a cost .... but seems to me you value everything material above human life .... those of the exploited and your own countrymen harmed in one way or another by the crap imports.

Don't you ever have the gall to preach morals or ethics to me .... you!!!!!! as you quote are a minority..... of one misguided and pathetic individual.

I wouldn't want you watching my back.

Unbridled mob rule???? Have you been on the pizz?

What you need is your namby pamby arze meeting my size ten boot ........ several times in rapid succession.

[mrp]

You luddite, you are just against free trade. You actually don't care about this voting, welfare and electioneering scam.

You just want to be poor.

"What you need is your namby pamby arze meeting my size ten boot ........ several times in rapid succession."



What you are forgetting is that I have size 11 boots. I really do.

Australian firms will continue to produce dangerous goods. So will foreign companies. Trade gives you choice. No one is forcing you to buy Chinese goods. If you had free trade in automotive goods, new cars would be up to 40% cheaper. Now we will have goods safe as any other imported and they will also be cheaper. We can specialise in what we make best and export it. There is a total welfare gain globally. Why do you want everyone to be worse off because you can't comprehend the irrelevance of trade deficits?

The almighty dollar is certainly *almighty* when you don't have enough to make ends meet. Why do you want people less-well off than you to starve?

[danet]

No one is forcing you to buy Chinese goods.

I think we are being cornered with many (too many in fact) products that are Chinese. I decided to do my own survey with products we have bought over the last couple of years, and really took a good look at the labels closely, and I am just a bit stunned by the amount of stuff we have in our home that is "Made in China" up until now, I never really gave it much thought......even all these different brand names that I thought were all their own style, is all "Made in China"......I checked pillows, towels, and many other household items rather than clothes, and it's all "Made in China" with the exception of some towels "Made in Pakistan"
I may go on a shopping agenda for items "Made in Australia" only.....I think this is going to limit my shopping? Which means, I may have to walk past all them specials or marked down prices?...... All I can think of is that many years ago, we used to be told to 'wash before using'......after seeing that current affairs programme with all that chemical formadaheyde....now I understand why. A bit like having to wash veges from all the resdidual chemical sprays. Okay, I checked the old queen size bed...and lo and behold....made in West Heidelberg Melbourne =D> The point is....buyer awareness......and just one question......we may have choices....but how much choice? Then there's prices and affordability that truly governs the shopper's household budget.

[mrp]

The point is....buyer awareness......and just one question......we may have choices....but how much choice? Then there's prices and affordability that truly governs the shopper's household budget.[/b]

Like I said: The almighty dollar is certainly *almighty* when you don't have enough to make ends meet.

Beggars can't be choosers.

[gnads]

Trade gives you choice

BS .... gives you more choice my arze.

My uniform is from Hard Yakka ........ Australian company? Supposedly but over the years my work clothing
has progressively changed from being aussie made to being manufactured in Fiji ... cheap labour ....... to being totally made in China.....slave labour.

So Hard Yakka is just an import and distribution outlet.

Go into one of your major supermarket Woolworths
and check out the "Woolworths Select" range that is quickly replacing most of the brand names ..... leaving you very little choice ...
most of it is imported .... much from China ...... Coles are doing the same.

"No one is forcing you to buy Chinese goods"............ yes they are!!!!! They manipulate the prices upward of other brand names and especially Aussie made products thus making choice harder to afford.

No one wants to be poor you smart ass .......... and nothing you waffle on about has made any difference to the wealth of ordinary people.

btw I made my comments about the voting debate in all sincerity and I don't believe it's viable nor do I support it in any form ....

some one's rights to debate such an issue is just that ............. their right.

Size 11 ey? Flat feet + flat head = pompous ass

What you're forgetting is dynamite comes in small packages ... it really does.

[mrp]

Free trade gives you a choice, by definition. You prefer the expensive, shoddy crap made in sheltered workshops?

Very few companies that can generate large profits operate solely domesitcally. Even a small farmer operates under the "export or perish" rule. We have such a small market and are outwardly orientated. Australians could take on that assembly type work, but the world (us, china, the rest) would be worse off as Ch. and Au. don't specialise.

I've already gone through the China issue. Very few people have the money to care about ethical issues. Only now in this point in time can some of us actually bother.

How are prices manipulated upward other than by the high tariffs on TCF in Australia? Companies like Hard Yakka get two bites at the cherry, using cheap, undutiable inputs on goods distributed here and sold versus goods with tariffs. The tariffs theior comeptitors face is much higher than the nominal tariff, being the effective rate of protection, or including all subsidies, quotas and assistance, the effective rate of assistance. A good way of bringing the work back here (the tariff jumping is a large icnentive for foreign direct investment) is to simply get rid of the tariffs and non-wage labour costs like payroll tax. Why would you or any other unionist disagree with this policy?

Small, powerful, deadly? Don't you blame the dog!

Now gnads I don't think I've waffled on, we've discussed about three different issues I've been pretty concise.

Australia can be proud that our own Max Corden came up with and first studied the idea of the ERP.

[gnads]

How is it choice when there are only two major retailers in the likes of

Woolies and Coles?

I explained to you that they remove the number of choices you used to have
and replace brand names with their own "Select" labelled products(which are imports) and then they mark up the
price of what brand names are left.

And free trade also allows for massive companies to buy out or take over others

leaving us with a huge monopolies and SFA choice.

The smaller ones are struggling to survive and are not in all locations

How long do you think ALDI will last?

You prefer the expensive, shoddy crap made in sheltered workshops?

That's rot and an insult to those people who don't have a choice because they are mentally handicapped.
All the professional crabbers around here buy their pots from the Endeavour workshop ... because they are the sturdiest and the best.

A good way of bringing the work back here (the tariff jumping is a large icnentive for foreign direct investment) is to simply get rid of the tariffs and non-wage labour costs like payroll tax. Why would you or any other unionist disagree with this policy?

I don't disagree with that at all ... but as I have said many times ... you don't make policy or legislation.

The current Govts. both Federal and State do ... and until the time comes when they(in both major parties) realise how over regulated and taxed the people of this country are and that all the double/triple dipping like, payroll tax, land tax, Personal income tax and GST .... then their is very little chance of change.

And like the obscene profits that the majors are posting at present (the Govt. is driven by the same minded people) they are driven by greed .. a$17 billion dollar surplus ... as a election tempter ..... the whole bloody lot should be put into or hospitals and health services........

then nothing is going to change.

[gnads]

For the Pres.

Monday 9 June 2007
Every economics commentator, Liberal politician, Treasury official, etc., parrots the cry that Australia is a low inflation economy. Any number of economists will sagely opine that inflation is under control, or at least stable. As proof of their economic wisdom they point to imports as being the principal instrument that is keeping “inflation under control”. Although there are some that think a little “tightening” is in order, it’s not because of a general increase in prices but because the housing market is running hot or the current account is not slowing down.
As any classical economist would have pointed out that the horrendous foreign debt and the current account deficit are clear manifestations of a reckless increase in the money supply. Such opinions are held in contempt by our oh-so sophisticated economic pundits. Our pundits sometimes stress that that rising productivity can contain inflation. Lurking behind this egregious fallacy is the dangerous concept that money is neutral, meaning that changes in the money supply only affects general prices and not the structure of prices.
Ordinarily rising productivity would cause general prices to fall and real incomes to rise, possibly even faster than money incomes. Let us use a crude example to lend further weight to this point. if inflation is 2.2 per cent and productivity is increasing by 5 per cent then inflation is 7 per cent. Why? Because without inflation prices would have fallen by 5 per cent instead of rising by 2.2 per cent. Most economists fail to see this because they always confuse inflation and deflation with changes in general prices.
Once the Napoleonic Wars were over increasing productivity in the industrialising countries started to bring about a secular fall in prices. A process that had the effect of raising real wages. The California and Australian gold discoveries temporarily reversed the process by triggering an inflation. However, the price effects of the gold discoveries appear to have worked themselves out by about 1854, after which general prices remained comparatively stable.
John Elliott Cairnes (1823-1875), called by some “the last of the classical economists”, argued that the price situation was a misleading indicator of inflation. He calculated that the gold-driven price movement had actually depreciated gold by something like 20 per cent to 25 per cent. Cairnes’ was making the crucial observation that an absence of rising prices does not mean an absence of inflation. (Murray N. Rothbard, Classical Economics, Vol. II, Eward Elgar Publishers, 1995, pp. 291-293).
Although Cairnes’ economic thinking was largely rooted in the classical school his analysis of the gold flow was a direct a descendant of Cantillon’s approach of seeing inflation in terms of a process that brings about damaging changes in the pattern of production and the structure of incomes. (Edward Cantillon, Essay on the Nature of Commerce in General, Transaction Publishers, 2001, ch.VI). The heart of this analysis is the realisation that money is not, and never can be, neutral. The Austrian school analysis of inflation is very much along the lines laid out by Cantillon. It distinguishes between price changes caused by changes in monetary policy and those caused by changes in the supply of goods and services. In short, there is an important distinction between money-induced changes in prices and goods-induced changes.
Australian monetary growth has been thoroughly irresponsible. From March 1996 — John Howard’s electoral victory — to April this year currency grew by 95 per cent, bank deposits by 166 per cent and M1 by 150 per cent. The figures for January 2000 to April 2007 are equally appalling: currency rose by 32 per cent, bank deposits 73 per cent and M1 by 68 per cent. It ought to beggar belief that Australian economists and economic commentators can seriously argue in the face of these figures that “inflation is being contained”. Yet that is precisely what they are doing.
Judging the economic situation from the Austrian-classical perspective we have to say that Australia is in a highly inflationary state. Another problem is that Treasury and Reserve Bank researchers are devoid of any genuine capital theory. They basically treat capital as an undifferentiated aggregate which has the peculiar characteristic of treating capital as a permanent fund and the production process and consumption as being a simultaneous process. Austrian analysis correctly treats capital as heterogeneous and production as taking place through time and sequentially. I doubt that any member of our economic commentariat understands the importance of this vital distinction.
The failure to grasp the true nature of capital and production has entrenched the dangerous fallacy that consumer spending drives the economy.
If we take account of intermediate spending, as we should, we will find that business spending greatly exceeds consumer spending. For those of you who think that this is the raving of a “rightwing Austrian fanatic” allow me to direct you to the US Bureau of Economic Analysis. Several years ago it made the decision to produce a national income statistic that it calls gross output. This attempts to calculate total spending, including spending on intermediate goods.
The results have been very educational: the Bureau’s December 2006 release for gross output revealed that spending for all industries was $22.857 trillion against a GDP of about $13 trillion. Considering that consumer spending is something like 66 per cent to 70 per cent of GDP, this must mean that business spending was in the region of $13-$14 trillion as against about $9 trillion for consumption.
So are there limits to credit expansion? In the days of the gold standard credit expansion was quickly reined in by an external gold drain, cutting short any lengthy monetary boom. Today countries can engage in reckless credit expansion for years and seem to get away with it. But sooner or later the party will have to stop.
When this happens depends on how the central banks interpret economic data, something they do not appear to by much good at. For example, the world is awash in money. Instead of correctly pointing out that this is the result of loose monetary policies on a global-scale, commentators and central bankers have peddled the fallacy of excess savings.

Gerard Jackson is Brookes’ economics editor

[brian c]

Call me Mr Thicko if you like but I can't see what this topic has to do with life in South Shields.

[danet]

Brian....there are some interesting general issues that I ask, where are all your clothes, towels, bedding, electrical goods foods made? china? It would be intesting if you give me an idea, as I have never been to England. Do you have a lot of choice without financial strains on goods you buy? And are they easily obtainable? Are there many things "Made in England" that you pursue?

[sherri]

brian, the basic answer for you is the issue originally had nothing whatsoever to do with local sth shields news. MrP was simply so upset with the concepts put forward by some politicians that he posted on the aussie board and also here to make sure non eof us missed it.
The topic then sort of veered off into a discussion about trade/China etc so it is now more general I guess, but still not a specific sth shields issue.
Possibly curly's board would have been a better place? Still, it is here now, so what do you think of Chinese industry?

[mrp]

You get choice in the good sold. They are merely distributors. They use market power over producers more likely than consumers. The competition exists between the various types of products which are vigourously marketed.

The best way to ensure more competition is to end static welfare analysis of markets - allow vertical integration, remove protected industries such as pharmacies, end restriction of foreign investors and end onerous planning regs.

Protected industries are terrible with respect to quality. Not Australian producers. Especially not Australian producers who face foreign competition. Australian auto manufacturing had much better components and cars after liberalisation.

There is a difference between the "excessive" profits of BHP and the Federal Treasury. BHP collected proceeds from customers voluntarily, providing a service. The surplus is ours, the BHP profits necessarily aren't.

You've picked the worst thing about our economy, our tax system which is inefficient and usurious, which cripples our structure of production at every stage or level of production. Economic commentators rely silent on this obvious fact.

Jackson is fairly sharp. I recommend a competitive banking and currency issue if not that that zero inflation targeting over the cycle linked to a growing gold reserve, failing that, a return to the classical gold standard.